Director of E. Jean Carroll Film Says Distribution Was “Quite a Challenge”

President Donald Trump is asking the U.S. Supreme Court to toss two verdicts against him resulting from civil litigation brought by writer E. Jean Carroll. In 2019, the famous advice columnist published a memoir describing an encounter in the 1990s when she says Trump sexually assaulted her in a department store. When Trump denied the account, Carroll sued him and won $5 million in damages, with a unanimous New York jury finding Trump liable for sexual abuse and defamation. After Trump made disparaging remarks about Carroll, she sued him again and won a second defamation judgment for $83.3 million. Federal courts have upheld both verdicts, but now Trump’s attorneys are asking the Supreme Court to overturn them, asserting he has “absolute immunity” as president.

Carroll’s life and her legal fight against Trump are the focus of a new documentary, Ask E. Jean, by award-winning filmmaker Ivy Meeropol. “This is an incredible opportunity for audiences to see what really goes on when a woman brings a case like this, especially against a powerful man,” Meeropol says.

TRANSCRIPT

This is a rush transcript. Copy may not be in its final form.

AMY GOODMAN: This is Democracy Now!, democracynow.org. I’m Amy Goodman.

Will the Supreme Court let two verdicts against President Trump stand for the sexual abuse and defamation of writer E. Jean Carroll? In 2019, E. Jean Carroll published her memoir, What Do We Need Men For?, in which she described an encounter in the 1990s when President Trump, she said, sexually assaulted her in a department store dressing room at Bergdorf Goodman. At the time, she was a well-known advice columnist and host of her own TV show.

When President Trump denied the account, E. Jean Carroll sued him and won. A unanimous New York jury found Donald Trump liable for sexual abuse and defamation, and awarded E. Jean Carroll $5 million in damages. President Trump then denied knowing Carroll and called her a “whack job” on CNN. E. Jean Carroll then sued him again for defamation. A second jury, also unanimous, awarded her $83.3 million. But she has yet to see a penny.

Federal courts upheld both verdicts, but now President Trump’s attorneys are asking the Supreme Court to overturn them, asserting the president has absolute immunity for comments he makes as president. The Department of Justice has submitted a filing to the Supreme Court backing the president’s argument. Trump’s attorneys have also sought to invoke a federal statute to swap the president out as defendant and have the U.S. government take his place, which would essentially nullify the verdicts, as the federal government can’t be sued for defamation. The verdict is on pause until the Supreme Court either reviews the two cases or decides to pass. The 2nd U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals conditioned the stay on President Trump posting a bond of nearly $100 million.

Well, a new documentary goes through all of this and more. It’s called Ask E. Jean Carroll. The film is directed and produced by the award-winning filmmaker Ivy Meeropol. Her past films include Heir to an Execution, a documentary about her grandparents, Julius and Ethel Rosenberg, who were executed at Sing Sing in the 1950s. In a moment, we’ll be joined by Ivy Meeropol, but first, this is the trailer for Ask E. Jean.

E. JEAN CARROLL: There’s no such thing as destiny, dear listener. We ourselves make our lives.

All the time I’m writing, writing, writing. And then I write this little quiz, and Esquire buys it. I got one taste of New York, and I thought, “Wow!” I was as happy a being as ever existed. All my dreams were about becoming an advice columnist. And Roger Ailes gave me my own TV show.

UNIDENTIFIED: You don’t really care who comments about anything —

E. JEAN CARROLL: No, I don’t.

UNIDENTIFIED: — because, I mean, you comment on everything.

ALINA HABBA: If you were concerned about being dragged through the mud, why would you choose to sue Donald Trump?

E. JEAN CARROLL: Because he called me a liar, and I couldn’t let it stand.

I called you right after the attack.

LISA BIRNBACH: I was very disappointed that you wouldn’t report him.

E. JEAN CARROLL: They never would have believed me.

LISA BIRNBACH: You were more famous than he was.

E. JEAN CARROLL: Here comes this huge attorney, Robbie Kaplan. She laid out the case. If women could see what kind of questions their fellow woman is asked when she brings charges against a powerful man.

ALINA HABBA: Were you wearing underwear? Did you wear a bra? Are you taking any medications and drugs? Have you ever had acting classes?

E. JEAN CARROLL: No.

CAROL MARTIN: There was some darkness coming in.

E. JEAN CARROLL: We were prepping for the second trial, and Robbie said, “The man you have not seen in 30 years is going to be in that courtroom.”

ROBERTA KAPLAN: E. Jean Carroll had the guts to face him down.

E. JEAN CARROLL: Twice!

I am thinking of getting a toaster.

AMY GOODMAN: The trailer for the new documentary Ask E. Jean, out this weekend at New York’s IFC Center and will be coming out in Los Angeles, as well.

We’re joined now by the award-winning filmmaker Ivy Meeropol from Cold Spring, New York.

Ivy, thanks so much for joining us. It might surprise people that these — I was going to say “this case,” but these cases continue, and they are now sitting at the Supreme Court. Explain this, these verdicts, and the amount of money that E. Jean could see, nearly $90 million from President Trump.

IVY MEEROPOL: Well, hi, Amy. Thanks for having me.

So, E. Jean, in the first case, she was awarded $5 million. Then she was awarded the massive, you know, amount of $83.5. And that specifically had to do with the amount of defamation that continued to rain down on her from President Trump, but also that activated so many of his followers to really threaten her, you know, violently. So, the $83 million was the jury saying, you know, it has to be a very large number to make it stop.

Both of those cases are now at the doors of the Supreme Court. I honestly can’t speculate on what’s going to happen there, but I can say that they have — I think at this point maybe there’s been about 10 or 11 weeks, maybe more, where they could have decided at least to hear or deny cert to the first case, and they just keep kind of bumping it down the road.

AMY GOODMAN: And the first case, the $5 million, explain exactly what that was about.

IVY MEEROPOL: Well, so, the $5 million had to do with the sexual assault and defamation. So, what E. Jean was able to do is, when the Adult Survivors Act was passed in New York, it allowed for a one-year window for victims of sexual assault, rape to file lawsuits. From any time in their lives, they could — they had that year window. And E. Jean was the first one to file that case. She had already filed a defamatory lawsuit against Donald Trump, because he, in his first term, had defamed her from the White House lawn and was attacking her regularly. So, that had been filed, but then, when the Adult Survivors Act gave her the opportunity to bring the case of sexual assault, she did so. So, that’s the first case.

AMY GOODMAN: I want to play a clip from the film which shows the start of E. Jean Carroll’s deposition, in which she is questioned by President Trump’s personal attorney, Alina Habba.

COURT REPORTER: Can you raise your right hand, please? Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

E. JEAN CARROLL: I do.

COURT REPORTER: Thank you.

ALINA HABBA: Good morning, Ms. Carroll. Thank you for being here.

E. JEAN CARROLL: How do you do?

ALINA HABBA: I’m OK. My name is Alina Habba. I’m sure you know that. I represent former President Donald Trump. Have you ever been deposed?

E. JEAN CARROLL: Never.

ALINA HABBA: OK. So, let’s go over some ground rules. First of all, you’re under oath, so that means you must testify truthfully and honestly and accurately to the best of your ability. So, are you ready to start? Is that a yes?

E. JEAN CARROLL: That’s a yes. Giddy up.

ALINA HABBA: OK.

E. JEAN CARROLL: If women could see what kind of questions their fellow woman is asked when she brings charges of rape against a powerful man, it would stop a racehorse. It is really quite stunning.

ALINA HABBA: OK, I am going to switch into the complaint. Do you remember what the temperature was outside?

E. JEAN CARROLL: Yes, clear and coolish.

AMY GOODMAN: So, that was a clip from the deposition. That’s in Ivy Meeropol’s film, Ask E. Jean. And she was being questioned by Alina Habba, President Trump’s attorney. She just stepped down as the top federal prosecutor in New Jersey, following an appeals court ruling that found she was unlawfully serving in that role — just a little background on Alina Habba. But E. Jean Carroll, we heard the deposition and then a clip of an interview with her talking about what women face when they make accusations about sexual abuse today, Ivy.

IVY MEEROPOL: Yeah, so — excuse me. So, I just want to first say that this is an incredible opportunity for audiences to see what really goes on when a woman brings a case like this, especially against a powerful man, but any man, really, that if you make it all the way to being deposed or sitting in the courtroom, you are going to be subjected to this kind of questioning. And when you watch the whole film, you see that it’s relentless, and it goes on.

So, these depositions were private. You know, they were not entered into evidence, and so they never were made public. And attorney Robbie Kaplan and E. Jean gave them to me as an incredible gift for this film and for the world to see this and to experience what E. Jean experienced.

But the other part is, and I love, you know, the start of it, because it just captures E. Jean, who she is, so beautifully, because right at the top, you see she takes it very seriously that she’s under oath, and then she doesn’t realize that she has to speak the word “yes” when Alina Habba asked her the last question, and she said, “Are you ready?” And then E. Jean just nods. And then, when Alina Habba presses her, she says, “Yes. Giddy up.” That’s like — I mean, I love it. It’s like the mantra for E. Jean’s life and for what E. Jean took to this case.

AMY GOODMAN: I want to play a scene from your film, Ask E. Jean, in which E. Jean Carroll talks with writer Lisa Birnbach, the first person she spoke to about Donald Trump sexually assaulting her back in 1996.

E. JEAN CARROLL: I called you right after the attack. We were not that close of friends. I had met you.

LISA BIRNBACH: You didn’t like me that much, right?

E. JEAN CARROLL: No, I adored you. See, that was the thing. I thought you were the funniest writer I know. And if I tell you what happened, you will laugh, and then I will feel great.

LISA BIRNBACH: Yeah, yeah.

E. JEAN CARROLL: And then we’ll both be happy.

LISA BIRNBACH: Right. I think, “Oh, this is going to be fun.”

E. JEAN CARROLL: Right.

LISA BIRNBACH: And you tell me this story. And I said, “E, what happened to you was horrible, and you got upset that I wasn’t laughing.”

E. JEAN CARROLL: Yeah. But if you thought it was funny, if I called you —

LISA BIRNBACH: It would take the sting out.

E. JEAN CARROLL: That it hadn’t happened, it was just a funny thing.

LISA BIRNBACH: And instead, I was shocked and said, “Wow! What are we going to do?”

WAITER: Ladies? Cheers.

E. JEAN CARROLL: Thank you.

LISA BIRNBACH: Thank you.

You know, I was very disappointed that you wouldn’t report him.

E. JEAN CARROLL: But, Lisa, they never would have believed me. I would have lost my — I would have been fired. I didn’t have money to get an attorney. Everything I had worked for would be dissipated.

LISA BIRNBACH: You said, “Don’t ever speak of this again. Don’t ever tell anyone this story as long as you live. Do I have your word?” And you did. And that was that.

AMY GOODMAN: That’s writer Lisa Birnbach, the first person E. Jean Carroll spoke to about being sexually assaulted in the department store dressing room. Ivy Meeropol, talk about the significance of what it means when a person has told another person contemporaneously.

IVY MEEROPOL: Mm-hmm, yeah. So, Lisa is what’s called an outcry witness, and which just means that she’s the person that E. Jean called, told right after the attack. Carol Martin is E. Jean’s other outcry witness. The two, those two women, were told within a day or two after Trump assaulted E. Jean at Bergdorf Goodman’s. And what’s important about that is that now, then 25 years later, when E. Jean decided to come forward with this story, she went to Carol and Lisa and, you know, asked that they please come forward now and lose their anonymity, which was not an easy choice to make for either of them. And they both did, and they both stood by E. Jean. And it’s a beautiful story of female friendship across the years, and then coming together to fight this common battle.

AMY GOODMAN: I want to go to one last clip, and that is, during his deposition in 2023, Trump was shown a picture of himself, E. Jean Carroll, her former husband, the news anchor John Johnson, and Trump’s then wife Ivana. He confused E. Jean Carroll with his ex-wife Marla Maples.

ROBERTA KAPLAN: You’re saying Marla is in this photo?

DONALD TRUMP: That’s Marla, yeah. That’s my wife.

ROBERTA KAPLAN: Which woman are you pointing to?

ALINA HABBA: No, it’s that.

DONALD TRUMP: Here.

ALINA HABBA: Carroll.

DONALD TRUMP: Oh, it’s that? Oh, OK.

ROBERTA KAPLAN: The person you just pointed to is E. Jean Carroll.

DONALD TRUMP: Oh, I see. Who is that? Who is this?

ALINA HABBA: Furthers the point, in a way.

ROBERTA KAPLAN: And the person — the woman on the right is your then-wife Ivana?

DONALD TRUMP: I don’t know. This was the picture.

ALINA HABBA: Ivana.

DONALD TRUMP: I assume that’s John Johnson. Is that —

ALINA HABBA: That’s Carroll.

DONALD TRUMP: — Carroll? Because it’s very blurry.

AMY GOODMAN: So, this is an amazing moment, right? This is Donald Trump, who said he’d never met this woman, who — she was not his type. And, of course, then E. Jean Carroll writes a book, he’s Not My Type. And he is confusing E. Jean Carroll with his ex-wife, Marla Maples.

IVY MEEROPOL: Yes. Now, you know, Amy, this was reported at the time, but I don’t think people, myself included, can fully appreciate or understand what was happening here, until we were able to just really play it out in the film. Yeah, as you said, Trump is presented with this photo that shows, you know, him meeting E. Jean in a — or, saying hello to E. Jean in a receiving line, and he gets confused. He is asked to identify everyone in the picture. And his wife Ivana Trump is there and with him, but he looks at E. Jean, and he says, “That’s Marla. That’s Marla, my wife.”

Now, Robbie Kaplan, so quick, she follows up with this unbelievable bombshell of a moment and says, “Would you say that all three of your wives were your type, are your type?” And he says, “Oh, yeah. Yeah, sure.” Doesn’t — you know, it’s just — we have that in the film, too. So, you know, it is such an important turning point in the case, and it just shows, you know, how all of his bluster about, you know, “she’s not my type” and all of this is just more lies.

AMY GOODMAN: Ivy Meeropol, as we wrap up, can you talk about the release of this film, the theatrical release this weekend? It’s opening at IFC Center here in New York, going on to Los Angeles. Have you had difficulty distributing this film?

IVY MEEROPOL: Yes, yes. It has been — as you can imagine, it is quite a challenge. You know, there is — it is just the reality in our country right now that this vengeful president — and he’s so powerful right now, back in office, that, you know, it has a chilling effect. So, we have had a very hard time. We know that audiences want to see this film. We’ve seen the reactions in the film festivals we’ve been privileged to be part of.

So, it took a while to get here, but we have partnered with Abramorama, an incredible distributor, and we are pushing the film out all over the country. And we can’t — we are really excited, because it’s a New York City story, and we — you know, just the IFC Center, Memorial Day weekend, big opening, we’ll be there all week. And yeah, we’re — I’m going to be joined by some incredible women to do some Q&As. Roxane Gay will be with me, Amber Tamblyn. So, you know, I feel the momentum starting. It feels like the exact right moment for this film.

AMY GOODMAN: Ivy Meeropol, director and producer of the award-winning documentary Ask E. Jean. Her past films include Heir to an Execution, about the execution of her grandparents, Julius and Ethel Rosenberg, executed in 1953. She will be at Q&As this weekend at the IFC Center here in New York.

Coming up, state officials in Minneapolis have charged an ICE agent for shooting a Venezuelan immigrant, then falsely reporting what happened. Back in 20 seconds.

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AMY GOODMAN: Honduran musician Karla Lara, performing in our Democracy Now! studio.