Trump’s “Shockingly Dangerous” Fed Squads Expand Their Reach

Trump’s anti-protest squads are broadening their reach and expanding their mission. Kelly Hayes and author Shane Burley assess the threat and put these events in their fascist context.

Note: This is a rush transcript and has been lightly edited for clarity. Copy may not be in its final form.

Kelly Hayes: Welcome to Movement Memos, a Truthout podcast about things you should know if you want to change the world. I’m your host, Kelly Hayes. Last week, after days of appeals from activists on the ground, the actions of federal agents attacking protesters in Portland finally drew national attention, with senators, celebrities and pundits joining organizers in raising the alarm. Videos of federal agents in combat gear making snatch and grab arrests on the streets of Portland and throwing protesters into unmarked vans went viral and the Department of Homeland Security confirmed This week, 150 federal agents are being deployed in Chicago in an expansion of Trump’s efforts to federally police protests in major “liberally governed” cities. In Chicago’s case, Trump’s chief of staff has suggested that the Trump’s anti-protest squads will broaden their mission beyond policing protests and intercede in matters of “community safety.”

On Sunday, the president of Chicago’s Fraternal Order of Police issued a public letter to Trump requesting federal assistance for Chicago police, over the objections of Chicago Mayor Lori Lightfoot. In Portland, we have seen police work in concert with Trump’s anti-protest squads, even as the mayor of Portland and the governor of Oregon, publicly called on the agents to leave. The same dynamics should be expected elsewhere, and even more so in Chicago, where Trump’s invasion is happening at the request of the president of the Fraternal Order of Police.

Today’s interview is a conversation with my friend Shane Burley, whose insights on fascism are simply invaluable in this moment. Shane lives in Portland and has been covering the protests, and I am eager to share his insights about what these events mean with you all. But before we get to that, I want to address a tendency I’ve been witnessing on social media and in conversations around what’s happening in Portland.

As people discuss recent events in Portland, some folks have felt the need to couch every comment in some acknowledgement that what we are seeing is not new. While there’s truth in that statement, we need to proceed carefully, because rather than offering useful context, many people are simply downplaying what’s happening by pointing to past or existing horrors. That is normalization and it is incredibly dangerous. It is important to understand that Trump did not invent these oppressions or tactics, and it is important to acknowledge that societal fascism has existed in the U.S. since its inception — meaning that there have always been people who have been excluded, either explicitly or implicitly, from social contracts guaranteeing the rights of the people. Such people, including my own people, have suffered horribly and experience repression, torture, and fascistic policing and imprisonment to this day. Those histories should be incredibly useful to us in this moment, because there are freedom fighters who have opposed fascistic conditions and policies in the U.S. for as long as this country has existed. There are many lessons to be learned, particularly from people who have organized inside prisons. But instead of sharing those histories and lessons, many people are simply pointing to them as evidence that what’s happening is not new, effectively flattening the threats we face into some larger terrain of history in which nothing is distinct or exceptional, because the significance of each horror is somehow diminished by the existence of other horrors. When we treat history as a jumble of comparisons, rather than a progression of events, it is difficult to make use of its lessons.

Trump’s anti-protest squads are a deputized mishmash of federal agents. In Portland, they have operated unaccountably while working in concert with police, at times attacking protesters alongside federal agents. I see no reason to expect different dynamics in other cities. In Chicago, where I live, tensions are still high following a protest last Friday that included an attempt to topple a statue of Christopher Columbus in Grant Park.

These are frightening times. But when people say, “this is not new,” I do understand what they are saying. For many, things have long been terrible, but I also need us to acknowledge that what’s unfolding right now is not happening in some state of fixed comparison to everything else. It is being transposed upon existing nightmares and creating new layers of terror and suffering. And all of this is happening while the president seizes all of the COVID-19 data and insists it’s safe for children to go back to school during a pandemic, setting the stage for genocidal outcomes with a denial network and data suppression mechanism already in place.

With everything we are up against, it’s time to take the question of novelty off the table and offer useful lessons in place of dismissal. It’s time to talk about the arc of escalation that brought us here and how we can organize against those who would destroy us.

For abolitionists like myself, who organize in opposition to the prison industrial complex, the work of author and freedom fighter George Jackson is a source of great inspiration and discipline. Over forty years ago, Jackson issued a call to action that I think must be echoed today. He said: “Settle your quarrels, come together, understand the reality of our situation, understand that fascism is already here, that people are dying who could be saved, that generations more will die or live poor butchered half-lives if you fail to act. Do what must be done, discover your humanity and your love of Revolution.”

[Musical interlude]

Kelly Hayes: Shane Burley, welcome back to the show.

Shane Burley: Thanks for having me on.

KH: How are you doing today, friend?

SB: I’m tired. It’s been a long few days at the end of a long few weeks at the end of the long few months at the end of a long year. So, I feel like it’s been, it’s been setting in lately.

KH: Well, I greatly appreciate you taking the time to talk today, with everything y’all have been up against. What’s happening in Portland has huge implications for us all, and while Trump’s anti-protest squad has gotten mainstream attention in recent days, with senators weighing in and whatnot, most people don’t have a clear picture of what’s been going on. Can you give us a sense of what’s happening right now in Portland and how the situation has escalated in recent weeks?

SB: Sure. So protests are continuing nightly in Portland. And so, sometimes, like on the weekends, for example, it’s happening all across the city at different points and then they’re converging, but generally it’s been centered around the Justice Center in downtown Portland. So Portland is kind of in four corners, but downtown Portland is in the Southwest. And so the Justice Center kind of there, it’s right across from a number of parks where a lot of demonstrations often happen, which [are] themselves across the street from City Hall. So it’s kind of a little corridor where there’s a lot of activity, usually.

The first night of the protests, at the end of May, there was a really large demonstration coming from north Portland. There was rioting and looting, at Louis Vuitton and the Apple Store and people stormed the Justice Center and set it on fire. And since then, people have returned to the Justice Center to have demonstrations, which are generally a lot more low key than the protest was that first time. But now the Justice Center is boarded up and it’s multiple buildings.

It’s a big kind of area — it’s boarded up completely with little slits in it where basically police can watch people and shoot tear gas from — and so it’s been kind of like a siege back and forth right there for weeks and weeks, weeks, and it has not stopped. We’re on day 52, I believe. And so, and there’s no real sign at this point that it’s stopping. So the point police have been really aggressive, incredibly aggressive of protesters and with press and basically putting out orders that were deemed unconstitutional, that they, that press had to follow the same rules as everybody else that they had disappeared during dispersal orders and things like that, which is just not how standard practice works for press.

Lots of lawsuits were filed by the ACLU, and some other organizations, the National Lawyers Guild, against that, and basically, to end their blanket use of tear gas, which was starting to be really aggressive and injured lots of people. And so that’s, they had to pull back, but at that point, Trump ordered in federal officers. The Department of Homeland Security, Border Patrol, and other people, have a confederation of basically federal officers that don’t play by those rules. And those sorts of orders don’t seem to apply. And they’ve come in, dressed in fatigues with weapons and then aggressively attacking protesters with munitions, with tear gas. There was a really kind of horrifying video of them hitting a protester in the head with one of these munitions, cracking his skull open. He’s going to be in many years of therapy to fix that. Other people have experienced seizures from the tear gas. And when I say to tear gas, I think people are thinking of little canisters that kind of dissipate. I’m talking of dozens of canisters into your cast happening almost simultaneously, that take out entire city blocks, and sometimes multiple blocks simultaneously, in ways that you literally can’t be in the space, it’s like, it would clear out any living thing. So we’re talking about this at a scale that’s much, much, much higher for a city that already clamps down on protests really aggressively. But that in a lot of ways has proven the point of protesters who have continued to come out. And for example, every day, or most days, the police put up these fences to blockade off the parks protesters show up, they take down the fences, they use them as barricades up against the building and it’s, it’s gonna be kind of a constant back and forth. On Friday night, we were at the Justice Center, I was covering it. And without any warning, in the middle of a hip hop concert that came at the end of like, you know, public speakers that included a bunch of like officials and stuff, federal authorities show up and get in a line, and just start nailing people with your guests, no warning. And they come kind of back and forth all night. Last night, protests actually went up north, which is quite a bit a ways away from the Justice Center to the Portland Police Association, the union’s office. They set it on fire and created flaming barricades on each side. Obviously the police cleared that out and then people went back to the Justice Center, but this has basically been that pattern that’s been going on for weeks.

KH: Well, thank you for that breakdown. I think that will be incredibly helpful to folks who are not getting the full picture from politicians or the mainstream news. I think a lot of folks are detached from the realities that protesters face on the ground, particularly in moments of rebellion. I haven’t been able to cover any protests in-person during the pandemic, due to health concerns, but I have seen a lot of police violence over the years at protests, both as a journalist and an organizer, and most people just really have no idea. But, I digress, because I want to ask about the constancy of the protests. We have seen a lot of protests play out in cities around the country. Portland is one of those places where the protests have occurred daily, without fail, throughout this movement moment. So what’s sustaining that momentum? And why have the concessions the city of Portland has offered to make, in terms of reducing the police budget, fallen short in the eyes of the protesters?

SB: Yeah. I mean, the police department or, you know, the mayor’s office, which is sort of like the police commissioner, you know, disbanded some units that are particularly unpopular one, uh, that was the modern equivalent of the gang task force, which in the 90’s and early 2000’s was a really aggressive way to dismantle all kind of youth groups. And so that’s gone, [and they are] cutting loose budget some, but it’s not nearly what organizations are calling for. So I was on the phone today with organizers from Rose City Justice, which is a very new organization, just in the last few weeks, a young Black organizers getting together and organizing this stuff. And they’re very clear what they’re demanding. They’re demanding $50 million cut from the police budget each year until there is no police budget. And it is forwarded into alternative programs, everything from EMT to mental health services, to like after school programs, stuff like that. So like what the city is coming and answering for is much, much less than what’s being asked for, which I think is also part of why the protests are continuing, but people are responsive. I mean, they are hearing this, these are incredibly popular protests here. And it’s not just like one group leading it. And oftentimes, you know, I think yesterday there were eight actions in one day. So people are very, very supportive of that. If you go around the streets of Portland, it’s generally blanketed with Black Lives Matter signs. So yeah, I think, you know, part of the tamping down on this thing has comes in the wake of actual, real success.

KH: It’s so good to hear that Portland residents have remained supportive of the protesters, and not gotten caught up in respectability or treating property as more sacred than the bodies police brutalize. Because the standard expectation around protest in this country is that folks remain “peaceful,” and to be honest, when we are talking about state violence at protests, I think the whole notion of peacefulness is kind of a sham, because there’s nothing peaceful about getting your ass kicked, and there’s usually nothing useful about it. I mean, sometimes people notice. Like on Friday, in Chicago, we saw a young Black organizer named Miracle sucker punched by a Chicago police officer who knocked her front teeth out because she was filming a violent arrest. A photo of Miracle injured and crying seems to have resonated with a lot of people and generated a lot of support for her, but that’s really unusual. Most of the time, people simply endure state violence and there’s really nothing gained by those who absorb that violence. It’s just expected of people, like they cannot be viewed as valid as protesters or agents of change unless they hold themselves to a standard of nonviolence that will never be expected of those attacking them. Like on Friday, at a Black and Indigenous Solidarity Rally in Chicago that turned into a march that wound up in Grant Park, where some folks attempted to bring down the Columbus statue, there were some cans and plastic bottles, and also some firecrackers, thrown at police. A short time later, the police fell down on the entire crowd like an army, brutalizing people indiscriminately. One of my friends said it was the bloodiest protest she had ever attended, and that people were bleeding from open head wounds and the police just kept attacking and gassing everyone. And yet, it took no time at all for people to post videos online of soda cans and plastic bottles being thrown through the air, posting things like, “DO YOU SEE THIS? THEY WERE NOT PEACEFUL!” As though those cans and plastic bottles justified the police mobilizing every tactical unit, suppression team and gang unit in the entire city of Chicago and sending them to Grant Park to gas, pepper spray and beat a massive crowd of protesters. One thing that really strikes me about those, “critiques,” I guess you would call them, is that they emphasize rules that have always only applied to one side, for the sake of maintaining order. Some people, some liberal folks in particular, have said that their complaints aren’t about rules or respectability, that the issue is effectiveness, but that flies in the face of everything we have witnessed recently. I certainly don’t think protesters should become hammers who see everything as a nail, but I also think people need to be honest about what’s been going on, and also, about what the police really are and what they do. I feel like we have opened up a lot of important discussions about abolition recently, and about just how little time police spend attending to violence. The percentage is so tiny. It’s like, if we are going to talk about these folks in terms of what they actually do, what their day to day violent practices are, the sexual assaults and murder they routinely commit with impunity, let’s be realistic about the context we are discussing. Because “peacefulness” is a fetishized term that is used to sanctify some protesters so that others can be condemned by comparison, and ultimately, disposed of without any backlash from the public. That’s why mayors love to say that movements are great, like the movement itself is always great, while the people who cause the most trouble are always portrayed as co-opting that beautiful, important cause, because the state has to discredit the idea that people might be within their rights to rebel — even though the idea that we have the right to revolt against a government that gives us no means of redress is supposedly foundational to this country. I know you all have seen a lot of terrifying violence in Portland in recent weeks. Historically speaking, repression often drives people away from protests. That doesn’t seem to be the case here. Can you tell us what you think that is? And what it’s like to be out there, on the streets of Portland, right now?

SB: Yeah, it’s really good, dangerous. I mean, it’s shockingly dangerous and you know, I’ve been to hundreds of these over my life and, you know, I’m no stranger to tear gas and flash bangs around here, but this was incredibly violent. You know, I’ve been talking, with a lot of journalists, there’s a lot of independent journalists, young people, sometimes even teenagers that are reporting on Twitter. And they’re basically getting the footage that’s been used by mainstream press and, you know, they’re saying that like, what’s dangerous about this is they don’t actually have any read on these officers. They don’t know what like, the rules of engagement basically are. They don’t know when they’re about to fire on people, they don’t know why, and it’s incredibly scary. And also they don’t seem to respect the line of press, and then obviously, obviously don’t respect the protesters and their right to do things. So it’s incredibly dangerous. I think in a lot of ways, and I’ve been talking about a lot of protesters about this, is that one of the reasons that the protests have continued in Portland is that the police are making the case for them. It’s one of the most obvious things that there’s a problem with policing, that the police are violent institutions, when they are just brutalizing people night after night. And then escalating after, like you said, after a certain amount of kind of mild reform comes in, then federal officers basically come in and just override it. So like it’s made the case very clearly that that’s what’s, that this is who the police are to them, and so I think people have that impetus to keep, keep going. I think that the aggressive strategies are meant to have a truly chilling effect, you know, send the message that you shouldn’t come to these, [like] it’s dangerous [and] you should stay home. It is having the opposite effect in a lot of ways though, because it’s making people really hardened and they’re digging in their heels on this.

So it’s a strategy that I think has a coherence from their perspective, you know, they want to show law and order kind of supporters that they’re taking action, but it really is actually hardening the anti-police opposition.

KH: So, it looks like protesters in Chicago could soon be squaring off with a similar force, or a similarly hybridized force of local police, who are well known for their brutality, and Trump’s mishmash of feds, sort of attacking people in concert, and doing their own thing unaccountably, within parameters that are unknown to us and with a chain of command that is not being explained to anyone. Our mayor says these federal agents are not welcome, but she’s also never been one to protect protesters from state violence. So it gets complicated when we talk about the relationship between local and state governments and Trump’s federal henchmen, because while these people hate Trump, they also aren’t fond of the protesters and would no doubt like the protests to end. What can you tell us about how this dynamic is playing out in Portland?

SB: So local officials are demanding that the feds leave, right? So there’s left wing or left leaning, kind of elected officials and city council stuff, they’re open, they’re coming to the rallies and saying these feds have to go. The Portland mayor, Ted Wheeler, who’s basically unpopular with Portlanders, unpopular with the left, unpopular with the far right — no one seems to like Ted Wheeler. He is very tepidly asking them to go. The Senate is, all of the state senators, you know, Ron Wyden and Jeff Merkley and demanded that they leave. The governor is demanding that they leave and saying that this was a cynical ploy by Trump, to use as an election tactic, which is probably true.

But yeah, the Portland police work with them. There seems to be coordination. They’re using police facilities, they’re going back and forth. And so this was a coordinated effort. And I mean, I think it says a really clear thing, that police have solidarity with each other, and so they’re standing in alignment there.

KH: You mentioned this being a cynical election ploy, which I completely agree with. And I also want to make sure people don’t get confused about what we are saying here, because even though it’s a ploy, the impacts are incredibly real, and what’s being foreshadowed here is potentially, incredibly bleak, in terms of where this federal practice is headed and what it means for the future of protest and policing. I mean, we are talking about squads of federal agents from different agencies, deputized as needed to be let loose on protesters, so whether the objective is material or symbolic, we are talking about violent efforts to maintain a fascist project.

SB: Yeah, I think it’s important to kind of like unpack exactly what, what Trump is doing here. I mean, there is no real legal framework that would justify for sending what essentially are armed troops. It’s a real kind of nominal difference between what the officers are doing and what, like a military force would be doing. They’re coming in with military grade weapons, they’re in fatigues they’re storming, the streets, they are treating the protesters like a home army, basically. And so what he’s doing is basically sending in officers to an area that he’s talked about wanting to intervene on. A liberal city, Portland in particular, which for example, which is a sanctuary city, does things Trump doesn’t like, and basically he’s coming in, taking over and using his, basically his military forces, a secret police today to do a political performance, as he has been faltering poll numbers. So what’s happening here is very cynical ploy by Trump to basically present the image of himself as a law and order president, so he can appeal to the base. Obviously, very unpopular with everybody else, but it’s a singular kind of force that’s coming in and doing this. It’s him kind of against the rest of it. And it’s really unclear except for the police obviously are in alignment. So it’s really, it’s really unclear how this is going to play out for him. And I don’t see any reason right now, why he’s going to back down at this point and not just continue to escalate, and for example, maybe go into Chicago, and maybe going into other cities, as he stands, align that with the local police unions and the police themselves.

KH: You mentioned Portland being important to Trump because it’s a liberal city, and I wanted to touch on another reason why Portland might be important to Trump. In addition to his overall contempt for places where people aren’t likely to vote for him, the Pacific Northwest holds a particular importance to the far right and white supremacists in the United States. Could you say a bit about how Trump’s engagement with white supremacist groups figures into this?

SB: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, this has been a center of the far right, of white nationalist organizing for decades and decades and decades. Obviously through the 70’s and 80’s, this was an area that was a target as a white homeland for people who were working with the Northwest Imperative to try and move out here and build kind of white enclaves, particularly in Idaho. And then also, it was the center of skinhead organizing in the 80’s and 90’s, and more recently Patriot Prayer, the Proud Boys, Identity Evropa, all have a large presence here, which has led to basically dueling protests for years. I think one thing we ended up not, I think we haven’t mentioned yet, was the way that some of these [federal agents] are actually handling protesters. So I think that while they were incredibly aggressive in town, it wasn’t actually very clear how profound what was happening was until video footage of them doing snatch and grab operations on protesters. So basically they’re running out of cars, going after protesters, remember that they appear as soldiers, they don’t appear as police. So they’re coming up, they’re grabbing protesters, and shoving them into unmarked cars. These vans, they rented from Enterprise Rent-A-Car, and then driving them away. Not exactly telling them what they’re charged with putting them into cells without making things particularly clear. And so these sort of like civil liberty violations are happening kind of en masse, as you have an occupying army in here, basically sent in by the far right with far right talking points and protocols.

KH: I am really glad you are naming so clearly how this alignment with law enforcement is working for Trump. Because he’s really blurring the lines between these agencies. His administration is pulling agents from the DEA, Border Control, the Bureau of Prisons, and even the TSA, basically any federal law enforcement agency, and treating those agents as interchangeable storm troopers. And by deploying them, he is hardening the loyalty of local police departments by sending scary cousins to beat up the protesters who are making them look bad. And I really, really want people to pay attention to this dynamic and how it works. I want people to understand that Trump is violently policing cities with these goon squads that he Frankensteined together out of various agencies, on the basis of a vague and dodgy executive order about protecting monuments, and that people really can’t afford to shrug this off. Like I have seen some people acting very dismissively about it, like it’s just a stunt and it will pass, and that’s incredibly dangerous because, for one thing, people are being hurt right now, and that matters, but also, we should expect the reach of these goon squads to continue to extend, because it’s exciting Trump’s supporters and it makes him feel strong, so why would he stop? These federal agents are allowing him to flex and show off his impunity.

SB: So they’re coming in with a certain kind of federal authority, but they’re stepping way, way far beyond that. And I think if that’s allowed to stand, then that becomes the new standard for what Trump’s doing. So he’s always, he has the standard now of sending troops into the cities.

He basically doesn’t like. And that’s basically what’s happening. He’s sending in troops to a city that he doesn’t like, or is handling things the way he doesn’t like, but then setting the standard that they’re going to blame behave in extra legal ways. And they’re going to kind of go in and treat it like a war zone.

And then that’s justified by the rhetoric of Trump, acolytes in the far right media. They’re basically, you know, uh, Going on and on about a BLM, antifa war and presenting it as everything as some kind of terrorist threat, when it’s not. And so I think what, what I think should be really concerning here, it’s not just that Trump has the ability to do this, but that the way that he does this is being conditioned to have these far reaching implications, that he’s going to have a much longer leash on how he’s able to interact, interpret the resources, give it to those officers.

KH: So we know all of these events are grounded in previous iterations of the horrors we are seeing now. We also know that the United States has always been a genocidal project. But we are seeing escalations right now on multiple fronts right now. The president has rerouted COVID-19 data away from the CDC and into loyal hands. He is trying to force schools to reopen and seems poised to conceal data that could contradict his back to work narrative. So we have fascist gains being made here, in terms of the destruction of truth, in terms of violence being inflicted on incarcerated people, including many Black and Indigenous people, in terms of the biological warfare that Trump is waging by deporting planes full of immigrants who contracted COVID-19 in detention. So can you say a bit about the fascistic escalations we are experiencing in this political moment?

SB: Yeah. I mean, I think there’s a complete disregard for human life that’s taking place. So on the one hand you treat protesters as if they are, sort of almost like a demonic force that needs to be put down by force, including cruelty and really incredible violence on them and just treat people as though their rights don’t matter.

So there’s that on the one hand, on the other hand, we’re talking about kind of a war on people vulnerable to illness. So like I kind of quote unquote war on the weak, a war of cruelty, and a complete disregard. So what you’re creating is these huge barriers of violence that are going to affect communities in a variety of ways. But at the same time, it comes along with a social conditioning that changes our values. So there’s a real normalization for that kind of cruelty that’s happening, not just from Trump himself, but the kind of entire sphere that’s around him. So, you know, Tucker Carlson’s a part of this, you know, Sean Hannity is part of this, there’s a normalization of this rhetoric that gives him the ability to do that and to escalate it even further.

And for those steps to be kind of pushed along the way. I mean, if we normalize the sending in of, essentially, troops into cities to disrupt things, what’s to stop that happening in other situations? What’s that to stop that happening if Trump contests the election results. There’s a lot of things that could actually happen here.

And the depth of it. When you condition people to have their values change, that has the ability I’ve taken things much, much, much further.

KH: That’s all very daunting, but I am so glad you are saying it, because these possibilities need to be acknowledged so that we can assess where we are at and what we want to do about it. I personally believe Trump is more dangerous than ever right now, because he’s in the homestretch of potentially losing this election. His back is against the wall and he has many weapons at his disposal. He doesn’t like the FBI, so he commissioned his own goon squads to investigate protesters, and now, potentially, to police cities. So what happens next?

SB: There’s no reason to believe that these protests are going to stop anytime soon, and there’s no reason to believe that the feds are going to pull out right away, so basically, right now we’re having a standoff. There’s a lot of things that could happen, theoretically. I think Trump is going to pull out all the stops though. There’s no reason to believe he’s not. I mean, he’s literally sending troops into cities. So in advance of the election that looks like he might lose, he’s going to double down, cause that seems that’s his choice. And he’s going to do it by trying to prove that he’s an authoritarian president and he’s gonna do that, particularly in liberal states where he thinks it might help. And so it’s hard yeah. I don’t want to be conspiratorial, but it’s hard to say exactly what restraint will be shown or if it comes to actually going to try and use his new favorite, authoritarian force, these federal officers to do things that are disruptive to an election happening. That’s quite possible.

And at this point, I think that the normal rules of the game should be considered obsolete. We were educated to survive in a world that no longer exists. The things are much more dramatic and can shift much more dramatically than they did in years past, even just since 2016. So I think people should be prepared for the fact that this may be a political battle that’s not just done with pundits on TV or by casting a ballot, but one that involves large organizations and confederations of people in the streets.

KH: Yes, and on that note, we are going to make an exit. Shane, thank you so much for making time to talk today. This has been a great conversation.

SB: Thanks for having me on and I’m always happy to.

KH: I also want to thank our listeners for joining us today, and remember, our best defense against cynicism is to do good and to remember that the good we do matters. Until next time, I’ll see you in the streets.

UPDATE: On Tuesday, July 21, Chicago Mayor Lori Lightfoot stated the city of Chicago would cooperate with Trump’s federal agents, but that the city would not embrace “dictatorship.”