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“The Cops Are With the Fascists”: How Police Terror and Trumpism Converge

Kelly Hayes talks with grassroots strategist Ejeris Dixon about fascism, police violence and how we can fight back.

D.C. police take over the front of St. John's Church near the White House as protests triggered by the police killing of George Floyd continue on June 23, 2020, in Washington, D.C.

Part of the Series

Kelly Hayes talks with grassroots strategist Ejeris Dixon about fascism, police violence and how we can fight back.

Note: This is a rush transcript and has been lightly edited for clarity. Copy may not be in its final form.


Kelly Hayes: Welcome to Movement Memos, a Truthout podcast about things you should know, if you want to change the world. I’m your host Kelly Hayes. In our last episode, Ejeris Dixon and I talked about what a leftist playbook for solidarity might look like in these times. Organizing during a time of rebellion in a society destabilized by a pandemic, we are also faced with the global ascent of fascism. Ejeris is with us again today to talk a bit more about fascism and what this moment demands of us.

Ejeris, welcome back to the show.

Ejeris Dixon: Hi, Kelly.

KH: How are you doing today, friend?

ED: If I’m honest, I’m a bit out of sorts. And, so we’re in, the weekend previously was Juneteenth weekend and I felt, I don’t know, I felt myself, like, lovingly looking out of the window at amazing protests and activity, and I’m just, I’m so high risk for COVID-19 that I decided to stay in, and of course do critical work. But I think I wished I was out on the streets with folks.

KH: I hear that and have been in a very similar place emotionally. But I am grateful to be talking to you today and grateful to be picking up this conversation, and for the amount of time you’ve put into what should have been a singular one hour conversation that has now sprawled into its second episode and third recording session.

ED: I mean, is there ever enough time to talk about fascist repression?

KH: Right? Just as background, for our listeners, Ejeris and I had recorded a lengthy conversation right after the protests had begun, but as the airdate for the episode neared, we decided to change things up because we wanted to make something that was, above all else, useful in this moment. So, we zeroed in on Ejeris’ answer to a question I asked about what a leftist playbook for solidarity might look like. And we fleshed out those ideas and fashioned them into something like a statement, which we shared with you all in the form of our last episode. That was a very last minute, emergency maneuver in a time of tumult and, fortunately, it seems to have resonated with a lot of people. We have gotten a lot of great feedback from folks who found the episode valuable, so I want to thank you, Ejeris, for bringing your ideas and your brilliance to that moment.

ED: Oh, I’m always grateful to be in those conversations. I think it’s important for us to connect with each other in these times. And we’ve been fascism discussion buddies for quite awhile, so I’m excited to [chat] with you.

KH: We did promise folks during our last episode that they would be hearing more from us soon about fascism. So the idea of “our playbook,” or a leftist playbook, against fascism is sort of a follow-up concept to a piece you wrote for Truthout called “Fascists Are Using COVID-19 to Advance Their Agenda. It’s Up to Us to Stop Them,” which laid out how Trump was going to exploit the COVID-19 crisis to achieve fascist ends. You also gave a list of 10 moves in the fascist emergency playbook. Could you tell our listeners what those moves are and how we have seen some of those maneuvers manifested?

ED: Absolutely. And I want to back up a little bit because the reason that I thought writing down the fascist emergency playbook, the reason I thought it was important to write it down, is because there is a way that each move is so destabilizing. It can knock us so off guard that it can be hard to respond. And there is a way that we can be so emotionally and psychologically distressed that it’s hard to create a collective response on the left. So I wanted to write it down so I could say, “Look, here’s what’s going to happen and here’s what’s in progress,” so that it would allow us to respond with the speed that, often, these maneuvers come at us with. So the first was to use the emergency to restrict civil liberties. And so there’s a particular role of emergencies within and under a fascist and authoritarian regimes, and it’s to use emergencies for power grabs. And so, removing rights regarding movement, protest, freedom of the press, a right to a trial, freedom to gather. And so under the pandemic we’ve seen borders close, which was a right ring power grab. We saw the imposition of curfews, many of which have been lifted, but not all. And we’ve seen a curtailing or an increased combative and aggressiveness against the press, and there is such a critical role, for media and for honest and truthful media, in terms of people tracking what’s happening to them.

So the next move is to use the emergency to suspend governmental institutions, consolidate power, reduce institutional checks and balances, and reduce actions to elections and other forms of participatory governments. We’ve definitely seen a reduction in access to elections in terms of what we saw in Wisconsin, where the postponement was overturned and people had to risk their lives to go vote. But another way that we’re also seeing, kind of this like, suspension or this reduction of institutional checks and balances, it’s really just the inability for Congress, or the incredible reluctance, particularly of Republicans, to check the executive branch of the government for continued power grabs.

So another move is to promote a sense of fear, individual helplessness, particularly in relationship to the state, to reduce outcry and to create a culture where people consent to the power of the fascist state. Under this, we can see a reduction in access to privacy around the way that contact tracing is being moved through many, many cities. Or you could just see the sense of, “There’s nothing we can do, so the government will do whatever it wants to, to quote unquote ‘protect us from the pandemic,’ even though we know that the federal government is not really responding to the pandemic at all.”

Another move is to replace democratic institutions with autocratic institutions, using the emergency as justification. And, whether it was stopping the kind of pandemic task force — and then in some ways there’s been a lot of information that’s come out around, not even giving freedom for people who were in the pandemic task force to speak to the press, and a whole host of ways that Trump continually moves as an autocrat and the government just kind of scrambling in order to check him.

And then the last is to create scapegoats for the emergencies, such as immigrants, people of color, disabled people, ethnic and religious minorities, to distract public attention away from the failures of the state and the loss of civil liberties. And so, whether you can see this in, kind of, state violence against Black people, you can see this in the military show of force that happened in Lafayette Square in D.C., and really even in Trump’s latest speech that happened over the weekend — naming these statues, these racists and Confederate statues as an assault on our heritage, using the language of thugs when he talks about Black protesters against police violence — or even in the increase of FBI visits against activists, it’s just this idea, and the language of calling Antifa a terrorist organization. But the scapegoating as a tool of distraction, as a way to actually allow a kind of sense of the general public to say, “I don’t care what happens to these other people. These other people are not us. And I will not check you for actively targeting, reducing the rights and actively being violent, or at least tacitly approving violence from white right wing forces against targeted communities.”

KH: If folks missed last week’s episode, I highly recommend checking it out because your insights, Ejeris, are just so important right now. As a grassroots strategist, you have helped organizers around the country grapple with all manner of crisis and catastrophe, and while I know you can’t share those stories with us, specifically, what are some lessons you can relate without breaking any confidences?

ED: Yeah, I feel like I’m seeing lessons and themes both in ways that would be supportive for progressive movements and challenges. So in terms of my optimism, Arundhati Roy talks about the pandemic as a portal, this idea that there are opportunities within crisis, as well as challenges. And I think there’s been a huge advance in not only the conversation around abolition becoming, in some ways more mainstream —I’m still reacting to it — and also, there’s this conversation around alternatives and like people, and many people, seeing defunding the police as a step in the abolition of the police, and the abolition of the police as a step in the abolition of the prison industrial complex. So I think that it’s horrible that Black people need to be slaughtered on camera for the rest of the country to understand that there is a problem with the police, but if we are going to die, let it at least advance and prevent more death of Black people by the state.

Another thing that I’m really seeing is I’m thinking about that incredible action around violence against Black trans communities and that being one of the biggest actions I’ve seen within my time here in New York. And just that there’s a way in Black communities, within LGBT communities in general, and I think, progressive communities as a whole, of the need to deepen the work to ensure that Black trans communities, and Black trans women in particular, have access to safety and support. And I’m also thinking that I have seen, through and in connection with what’s happening with the pandemic, a whole host of organizers really grapple with, “What does it mean to center disability justice in our movements?” And so, I think all of these are advances that happened in connection with the crisis.

Now, the pitfalls I’ve seen, I had a week about a week or two ago, where I was talking to multiple progressive organizations. And I felt like I was having the same conversation over and over again, around deep and heightened conflict within movement organizations, really playing out with, in some ways, how to center the need of like the increased needs of care work, the increased needs that people had towards take care of taking care of themselves and their families. And also this need to respond, and a way that some of these conflicts were becoming personalized, right, around like, “You don’t care about me or we don’t care about each other, and we need to suspend all of our work to deepen into this conflict.”

And one of the things I really stressed in the article and that I’ve been stressing in general is that, these times need more of us. And more of us meaning, there will be both an increased need for us to attend to our wellness and take care of our loved ones, and there’s also an increased need to mobilize. And that we should continuously push back against this idea that, this like, kind of need for an either/or.

One of the things I think about when I hear the same conflict over and over again, and you overlay that with this sense that we’re under increased repression, is how it serves the needs of the state and how it serves the needs of the right wing. So we should assume that we’re under an intense level of surveillance and government infiltration. And so what that means is that all of our conflicts are incredibly useful to the right wing. And so when I’m seeing a theme or a rising in conflict, and a level of conflict that kind of stops multiple really deeply impactful organizations and movements from moving their work forward, I think, “Who does that serve?” Well, that serves the right wing. “Well, then who’s fostering this?” So this is not my, like, go get paranoid against your like collaborators and comrades moment, but it is my call to all of us to deepen our work in kind of conflict transformation, addressing harm, operating with deep honesty and deep integrity in these times, because in some ways, some of these conflicts can be as a result of either state interference or sometimes we just do the work of the state for them. So that’s one of the things that I wanted to really name, not to increase fear, but almost to increase our own diligence in that area.

KH: So in terms of where we are in a fascist progression, and what’s been going on lately, my first concern right now is that I saw Democrats up in arms about John Bolton last week, declaring that if Bolton had told the truth sooner, Trump would have been removed from office via the impeachment process. This really blew me away, honestly, because it hadn’t occurred to me that people could still be this steeped in denial.

ED: Like, there is a need to continually counteract these ideas and counteract this sense that like, “Yeah, if this had happened, then things would be better,” or, “We’re just suddenly going to address, like, what is actually a demonstrated push towards an increased right-wing advance in this time.” So I’m not surprised by the disbelief. I’m trying to think about what are the mechanisms and supports we need to continually counteract it.

KH: That makes a lot of sense. I am just frustrated [with people] because it should be clear to everyone at this point that for the Republicans, there really is no bottom. There is no moral limit. There is no evidence that would have tipped the scales and caused them to vote for removal. Folks just shouldn’t have any illusions about the level of complicity going on here. It’s just beyond me that anyone could still think that the Republicans have some sort of conscience to appeal to. It’s ridiculous. There are no ethical constraints here. None.

ED: Absolutely, absolutely. I mean, one thing I think about is, Hitler’s government had a minister of propaganda, you know, like literally in those exact words. And so there is an absolute kind of cultural, psychological, and informational element to maintaining an authoritarian state. And so, I’m so grateful for Truthout and I’m grateful for all of the forms of independent media that are, kind of, talking about the truth. And I remember that the first time we talked. I don’t know if you remember, like, I think I sent you a series of texts, maybe that week, because that week I saw multiple mainstream news sources for the first time in my tracking, start to say the word fascism. And I remember watching MSNBC, literally, and people were saying, “So if this is fascism, what do we do?” And I was both like, What does this mean? What’s happening? And, could this even be its own function in normalization, that now, the mainstream media is starting to talk about fascism and people still may not blink?

When you move out of strategy, you need to know where you’re going. What’s the goal? What’s the first step? What’s the second step? And you need the ability to assess your power along the way.

So, one of the promises I made to my friends is, I had a lot of friends over and we were watching the results of the 2016 election. And it started off as a fine and sweet night full of, you know, various fried food and lots of laughter and eventually ended up in everybody with their different laptop, writing their different statement, trying to figure out, should we just leave now? Because you know, as a group of Black, Indigenous, people of color, and queer and trans folks, we were like, “Well, we know what happens to us under fascism.” And under that, because in some ways it’s both how my strategy brain works and how my anxiety works, I agreed to my friends that I would track fascism, right. That I would track kind of authoritarian and fascist advances. So I could say, “Okay, here’s what’s going on.” And to really be able to say, “Do we need to leave,” right? Cause there’s a point when you look at the folks who survived the Holocaust, and many people who survived left, right. And the people who were many Jewish folks, Roma folks, queer people, trans folks, people who are most targeted, the people who had the highest likelihood of survival knew when to go. And there’s a point where that happens and recognizing the way that normalization happens and the way disbelief happens, I decided that it was my desire to kind of look at history, and to look at our current context, and see what I could trace back onto history.

KH: I think it’s really beautiful that you promised your friends that you would play that role for them, tracking all of this depressing info and trying to gauge the threat. I’m the storm cloud nobody asked for, just constantly raining on every parade. But seriously though, I have been grateful that I didn’t go down that rabbit hole alone, and that we’ve had each other to lean on during all this.

ED: Yeah, I mean, it’s, um, it can really mess with your mind, right? When you’re saying, “This is bad,” and everyone around you is saying, “It’s fine. You’re exaggerating.” Right? But as long as we remember that people on the left, when they say, “It’s fine, you’re exaggerating,” what they’re really saying is, “If I fully believe you and take this into my heart, I’m terrified, and I’m choosing to not be terrified right now.”

And we need those people too, right? Sometimes those people hold hope better than people like you and me, right? And you need both to build strategy. But it’s, it’s really around, like, how do people utilize folks like us who can say, “Here’s everything that can go wrong,” alongside all the people who can say, “Well, here’s all the possibility,” right? Cause that’s actually the goal. The goal is keeping those two types of people together as we build power, right, to not allow us to play each other off, because bad strategy happens when pessimists make it and bad strategy happens when only optimists make it. Right? So there’s a need to like, that’s the connection between kind of short term and long term strategy. It’s also aligning, like, almost a pessimistic and optimistic worldview with real information that comes from actual news, right, and the ability to mobilize.

KH: So, in terms of tracking the progression of events, let’s talk about what we are seeing right now. For one thing, we see Trump’s followers spreading misinformation about COVID-19 deaths. In addition to downplaying the risks, they are, in many cases, spreading conspiracy theories. One of these conspiracy theories is that hospitals are inflating the death tolls for COVID-19. This is a theory we’re seeing again and again, and it’s an idea that Trump has lent credence to. Some are claiming that hospitals are marking all deaths as COVID-19 deaths in order to get more federal funds. The last time Shane Burley was on the show, he mentioned that storylines are sometimes generated to exonerate people who do not intervene during times of genocide. Narratives about how people didn’t know or understand what was happening are used to absolve folks, when what really happened is that, over time, shifts occurred, socially, culturally and economically, and those shifts changed the way that people ascribed value. So they let horrific things happen without intervention. I think it’s really important that people understand where we are in relation to that. Over 122,000 people in the U.S. have died of COVID-19, and there are people here, supporters of the president, who are insisting that those COVID deaths aren’t real. They aren’t just normalizing mass death, they’re erasing it.

ED: Yeah, I mean, I think everything you just said makes so much sense and what Shane Burley was speaking to. State violence is a characteristic of fascism, right, and the mass death, disappearing and murdering political opponents, and the genocide of whatever targeted communities are named as the scapegoats. I don’t think we’re at a place culturally where people can say openly,on mass media from the government, “We are so excited about how many black and indigenous people are dying right now and will die in the next year. We think it will be great for our political prospects. This is going to be excellent for the right wing and for the Republicans,” right? That would be challenged and addressed to some degree, right? And so instead, it’s both current and also for the future, so that in the future, if this goes bad, you can say, “I didn’t know,” right? “I didn’t know it was happening,” or, “I did the best I could with the information I had.” But yeah, I absolutely agree that the response to the pandemic is intentional, deep, deep neglect, and our communities are suffering. And I’ve been doing a lot of thinking about what does it mean to live love and be deeply connected to a community within the midst of genocide, and what does… what can we…I mean, if I’m super honest with you, Kelly, like I think about my ancestors in the middle passage right now. And I think about what does it mean to resist on a slave ship, knowing a whole bunch of you are going to die?

KH: I hear that. So we have a fascist president who is responsible for the unchecked spread of a disease that is not on any kind of downward trajectory in the U.S. By withholding meaningful financial relief, the government has created a death march scenario for workers. We are reopening the economy knowing that a lot of people are going to die, and knowing that those people will disproportionately be members of scapegoated communities and scorned communities, Black people, disabled people, Native people. When we talk about the people who are demanding that the economy reopen, there’s a lot of very real economic despair, but there’s also, amongst some people, a lot of entitlement. Some people want the economy reopened because they want to be served.

ED: Yes, because they’re okay with the political project of killing us.

KH: Exactly. Trump’s followers subscribe to his reality by choice because, as you’re saying, they like how it feels, they’re ok with this project. They like living in that reality. They have unanchored themselves from the reality that many of us more or less share, albeit colored by perception. There are baseline realities that most of us can agree on, and that allow us to even debate about ideas or what should happen. Trump fans sacrificed all ties to that shared reality that allows many of us to have agreements and disagreements about politics. They cannot debate politics with you, not really, because they are married to a different reality. Insisting upon that reality is part of their political participation. And right now Trump’s fans are insisting that people are not dying in great numbers of COVID-19. And, I mean, I know this scares the hell out of you and me, I hope it scares the hell out of everyone, because these folks are demonstrating a capacity for erasure that’s just terrifying. The normalisation of mass death is horrifying enough, but the erasure of mass death is setting the stage for increasingly horrific outcomes.

ED: It’s similar to people who say there was no Holocaust, right? It’s similar to people who talk about slavery being so long ago that they don’t understand why Black people still have an issue with it, or similar to people when folks talk about Native genocide. So this normalization, it entrenches the Republicans in a move when they had another move. Like, what is going to happen, even with mass killing, is that this country will be majority people of color in a short matter of time, right, in a short matter of time. And that strikes kind of like deep white nationalists fears, but there is actually another move for the Republicans. There’s another move of like, what does it mean to move their own political project within that United States, right? And so by entrenching themselves in this like, kind of, make America great again, hearkening to the past, and committing themselves to kind of the erasure of mass death and to their own genocidal projects, they’re committing themselves to state violence against our people.

KH: So we’ve been hearing a lot in the last week about FBI agents approaching activists. We also know that the Justice Department has authorized agents from the DEA to act as a special surveillance and investigative unit that’s been tasked with investigating protesters who are part of the current movement against police violence. The Justice Department has previously sought to broaden their surveillance powers, including the department’s ability to surveil Trump’s political enemies. That’s really important here, because whether we are talking about DEA agents who have become Trump’s private protest police or rank and file cops, the Justice Department serves as a major point of alignment between Trump and the most violent enforcers of white supremacy in the United States. By refusing to investigate police departments or civil rights violations committed by police, Trump has affirmed the right of police to kill with impunity. And that is absolutely what matters to the police, first and foremost, as we’re seeing right now around the country. Police are furious that there are indictments happening and that people are being fired in multiple cities. They are furious that the unwritten policy that has informed their work, that violence is administered at their discretion, has been destabilized. They cannot imagine a world where killing Black people has consequences for them. It’s just unthinkable to them and they are willing to fight to prevent that world from coming into being.

ED: Absolutely, I mean, when we think about the history of policing rooted in slave patrols, like policing has always been a project of killing Black people, right? It has been a project of killing Native folks. It’s been a project of kind of upholding a white nationalist state.

And so any type of reckoning within that, it is both kind of a historical and current challenge. And what I think, what was fascinating to me was, I don’t know if I was talking to you about this Kelly, but I was talking to a friend I think, and I was like, “You know, the fascist emergency playbook extends.” I didn’t want to like write down every step, cause I didn’t want to, you know, have people stop listening to me because it was overwhelming or I was being dramatic or whatever people wanted to say, but in 1933 when the Reichstag fire happened, which was the German parliament, and it was blamed on kind of leftist dissidents. What was the next step? Well, the secret police went around and rounded up leftist dissidents for the safety of the state, right? The next step is like whatever our version of the secret police is; it’s the FBI. So is it surprising that we’ve seen an uptick of the FBI visiting leftist and progressive organizers? Absolutely not. That’s not a surprise. That’s the next step. What I would really like for us is to not be surprised by predictable moves on behalf of the right that we can plan for, right? And that we can deepen our security and safety practices that we can talk to each other about, and that we can make sure that we have support for each other with it.

KH: Trump has gone out of his way to establish that he will pardon loyal subjects, and that he will pardon law enforcement officers who enact racist violence. The same with the military — Trump has made it clear that people who act on his values and are punished for it will have protection. So we are talking about an incredibly deadly alignment. The federal government has been arming its police to put down an insurrection for many years, dispersing tanks and other military equipment, like grenade launchers, around the country. The Los Angeles School Police Department, for example, got some attention when they agreed to return three grenade launchers that they’d acquired through a federal program. For anyone who missed that story, they returned the grenade launchers, but kept a Mine Resistant Ambush Protected armored vehicle, just in case there’s ever a disturbance at a school that requires a tank, I suppose.

I think people need to be very aware of Trump’s alignment with law enforcement and how he is leveraging that alignment at any given time. And organizers need to draw this narrative out very clearly for people, because people are out here having fantasies about Republican senators having respect for the law, and about the police as being part of the working class, thinking they might join us as protesters one day. And we need those people to get caught up with reality as quickly as possible. For one thing, fans of fascism believe their politics transcend class. For another, the cops are definitely with the fascists. They are overwhelmingly Trump supporters.

ED: When I think about this deadly and dangerous alignment and, kind of, Trump making it clear that people who act on his values will have protection is [that] we’re going to be at the intersection of multiple emergencies towards the fall, meaning people are predicting this kind of next wave of the pandemic happening in the fall, which aligns with the election timeline, which also aligns with the timeline of hurricane season. And this hurricane season should be the worst that people have seen in quite a while. So this is all to say, like, this is around demystifying a fascist playbook and saying that we should predict another and deeper right-wing power grab that Trump is signaling right now, that people who act on his values, he will do whatever is in his power to protect them from, kind of, accountability and scrutiny.

KH: And we’ve sort of seen in his actions, in recent weeks especially, that he is, you know, fortifying his relationship with the far right, the fringe, the people he believes will show up for him no matter what. And that really goes hand in hand with his relationship with police, right? Because you have a lot of very ultra right, very white supremacist ideas and actions coursing through those forces, always. That’s why they were taking group photos together after they tear gassed people. For them, that moment was about shared identity and a shared practice of violence. We’re not talking about a potential for mass violence because we have seen the police rioting and unleashing waves of violence during a moment of great scrutiny. The cops have been making some very clear and declarative statements with their behavior.

ED: Yeah, and then also historically police and law enforcement are violent supporters of the fascist state, right? It contributes to people’s fear of resistance because of the level of kind of state surveillance and state repression. So the idea that there’s going to be a difference between people’s kind of professional alliance and a cultural alliance, like that doesn’t make sense. They’re the enforcers of the fascist state. So whatever, like you know, photo op you would like to have with a cop thinking that this has suddenly changed the institution of policing in this country, it’s not it, right? In fact, we should look for increased repression and increased consolidation, and a way for them to shift law to make more and more forms of resistance increasingly illegal. Like, that’s why this kind of like stark policing of the protests is such an obvious move, right? Like, a lot of the reopen protests, like we didn’t see mostly white communities who are protesting to reopen getting tear gassed, right? But when it’s Black, Indigenous, and people of color, folks who are out protesting state violence, we’re seeing a completely different response. So policing is not neutral. Policing is not politically neutral, right? Like this is literally in the interest of the ruling class and the fascist state.

The part that my, like, small but eternal optimist also wants to name is that we’ve also seen an incredible, right, an incredible amount of protest and resistance during these times. And this is exactly what people need to be doing and need to be supporting and continuing, because without it, we could participate in this sense of normalization, like [playing into the idea that] there’s something wrong with communities being on the streets right now, protesting state violence. And I know that one of the markers of kind of a furtherance of fascism or authoritarianism is increasing the idea of political prisoners. We already have many political prisoners in this country, but I think a lot of folks talk about how so many of our prisoners are political prisoners, if you look at how laws are written and if we even just look at the lack of response or care to the spread of the pandemic within prisons and jails. So I would just say that policing and law enforcement is in lockstep with Trump and the far right and will continue to move a political project towards consolidation of power. And it’s literally, it’s on us to stop it.

KH: Absolutely. Well, this has been a great conversation and I am just so grateful for you, Ejeris.

ED: I’m so grateful for you, Kelly. You have been a voice around fascism, around the pandemic, around so many crucial issues. And you’re, sometimes I feel like, it’s not punished, but you come out early and then people gaslight you, you know, right? And I am similar in my own way, although sometimes in my own quieter way, cause I just, I’m not as much on social media. But I just want to say that, for all of us to remember that there is a risk taking and courage about naming things, how they are in the moment under times of repression. And if people are saying you’re exaggerating, you’re probably just right on, you know? And a couple of weeks later, similar to what happens in me and Kelly’s lives —I don’t know if I told you this Kelly, I started to get “You were right” text messages in the last month, or “Thank you, you’ve been right.” And it’s been the least satisfying time in my life, where I’ve been accurate, because I want to make sure that we all know what we’re navigating and what we’re contending with when we have enough time and power and community and health to navigate it all.

KH: Absolutely. Well, I’m so grateful for you as always, and grateful for you being my partner in dealing with all of our freak outs over all these months, and I can’t wait to have you back on the show when you’re able to come. Where should people look for your work?

ED: So I work through kind of a social justice consultancy. We basically support groups, and that’s Vision, Change, Win, so people can look for me on Vision, Change, Win’s website. I put up most, if I’m on social media, I’m on Twitter, so that’s just like @ejeris on Twitter. And if you wouldn’t mind me naming, we’re coming out with a security culture and safety and security for these times toolkit this week that I’m really excited, and we’ve been thinking a lot about how to…

KH: Oh my God. That’s amazing.

ED: Yes, I’ve been really excited. We’ve been getting a lot of requests on people thinking about, one, navigating protests, but also navigating surveillance. So, we’re coming out with some baseline tools in the next week, so people, look on Twitter and on our website, you can find them there.

KH: Amazing, well now y’all know where to follow up and please do, and especially with that security culture piece. We all need that really badly right now. And we all need Ejeris’ wisdom in our lives, so thank you again friend. I also want to thank our listeners for joining us today. And remember, our best defense against cynicism is to do good and to remember that the good we do matters. Until next time, I’ll see you in the streets.

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